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Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
394
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Posted - 2013.01.09 20:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seems like recently CCP's balancing efforts have focused on face melting dps and speed rather than tank. I like the idea of having a brick tank but the thing is in most cases in solo pvp it is not competitive.
Unless your sitting on a warp in, your foe is sitting in a unventilated airtight room that was just painted, or they want to die their is nothing you can do when being kited to save you. At a frigate level you can pull a sling maneuver against an unaware foe but in cruisers up this is not possible. Then if you somehow do have a method of stopping their DPS with a tracking disruptor or some other trick your opponent can leave whenever they want. If you fit a disruptor then they just burn slightly farther out and then leave. Their needs to be some way of making both types of setup competitive.
If it was like rock paper scissors then the rock is beater by paper and paper just floats away from scissors leaving rock and scissors to beat on each other. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
394
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 22:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:EW Tacklers Alpha Ill just warp away if you use any ewar. A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo How many tornadoes is solo? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
394
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Posted - 2013.01.09 22:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:
So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed?
1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
394
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 23:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote: By me warping on top of you after probing you out? :p Anyways, typically the fast high DPS ships need to get in close anyways to have their full effect. Won't always be guaranteed, but really, guerilla tactics are the specialty of fast ships either way. Kind of just gotta deal with it. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but the ships fill out their roles just fine for the most part. Can't really expect a battleship to keep up with a frigate for example. Some are just meant to be the fast ships that are near impossible to swat, but there are ways. And if they balanced for solo, it'd screw up the fleet balancing.
You don't pvp much do you. If im not moving and you probe me out im a terrible pilot, and since when do fights occur in safe spots, the high dps fast ship will only burn in close if he is an idiot or has an obvious advantage (like you already almost being dead). Secondly im not talking about battleships and frigates im talking about cruiser versus cruiser.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
394
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 23:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
The CandyGirl wrote:Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo.....
Boggles the mind doesn't it because it can be fixed. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
394
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 23:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Commander Ted wrote:The CandyGirl wrote:Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo.....
Boggles the mind doesn't it because it can be fixed. It doesn't need fixing. How would you know. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
395
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 02:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Garreth Vlox wrote:Commander Ted wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:
So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed?
1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? Fit an MWD and shield tank your ****, speed issue resolved.
Moa vs caracal which one is going to be faster?
Drake vs hurricane?
Cynabal vs anything? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 03:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
My proposal that I put up in features and ideas is to buff web drones. 5 web drones of any size would equal 60% webs. They can be blown up easily and still be outran but provide a good chance of forcing an opponent into a distance where you have a chance. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 04:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Olleybear wrote: You are correct that a pilot who knows how to fly a shield/gank/speed fit is not going to be caught by a brick armor tanker. This is by design.
Each ship setup, whether shield or armor tank, has its own particular use in different kinds of fights. This is good because it gives us more variety and allows us to setup our ships for different situations. Afterall, why even have shield tanking and armor tanking if there isn't a difference between the two?
Your frustration is understandable but misplaced. Your making a common mistake that a lot of pilots make, which is using the wrong fit for the job and trying to force that fit work because you like it. Dont let yourself get into that mindset.
The solution is to either develop tactics so you can grab and hold that speedy bugger, or change your ship fitting so you are speedy as well.
Adapt and have fun doing it. Fly safe.
So what exactly are the maller and moa good at countering except other brick tankers? Not to be mean to the developers but I think you give them to much credit. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 04:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Olleybear wrote: I dont fly amarr so am unable to comment about those specific ships. Unfortunately I am at work at the moment and cant really start looking at them in depth. Perhaps someone who does fly them can comment?
I can say that the cruiser rebalance has made many more cruisers useful in pvp. For instance, the caracal is a much better ship than it was before, is faster than the rupture, and puts out nearly the same dps with heavy assaults. The caracal is now a fine ship.
The credit I am given to the developers on the cruiser rebalance is deserved. Why? Much more pvp is occurring with them.
So you just cited an excellent kiting ship as coming ahead in this rebalance. What exactly in the cruiser lineup is good at killing caracals? If you said something fast then your a winner! Now if I am something slow with dps that can even reach out their like a armor vexor then my target still can just leave or kill the drones.
The maller and moa are very slow and very tanky ships that put out meh dps. Thats about it, a brawling dps boat can spank them and they are the perfect targets for kiters. They aren't bad ships it is just they are easily countered. All ships slower than kiters get killed by kiters when they fly correctly.
So the problem is fast things kill slow things and fast things are killed by fast things. Slow things can't kill fast things unless they suck so slow things just fight other slow things. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 04:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Basically what slow ships need is something like a web or scram that can reach out to range. Not something like a 20km scram or web, but something counter-able like webifier drones. A brawling ship can fit them and still work but it has obvious tradeoffs. A kiting ship can still engage them, but now the brawler has a chance of taking on a kiter and landing a scram. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 05:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Olleybear wrote: You realize that whatever drones an armor tanker can use a shield tanker can use as well right?
Your using the wrong tool for the job when trying to use armor / slow vs shield / speed. It is that simple. Each kind of tanking has its place in eve but not in all situations.
If you cant learn to accept that, you will continue to die, get mad(er), and eventually quit playing. You wont have anyone to blame but yourself for not adapting.
If you can learn to accept that, you will become a better pilot and have much more fun.
So here is the deal: If I fit a shield vexor and fight the guy and kill him then that same shield vexor is also good for killing slow armor tankers. Your telling me to use the proper tool for the job, im not an idiot I know this. The deal is the faster ship wins speed is king. Name me what slow ships are good at counter? If im using the wrong tool then the tool I am using must be the optimal weapon for something right?
See by adapt you mean use the most viable type of ship. Name me one case in which the armor tanker beats the shield tanker then. Thats right when the other ship gets scram and web on it. I fly shield ships all the time, but I want it to be more viable to use armor solo or slow shield ships.
Answer this: Slower ships < faster ships Slower ships > ______
What does a armor vexor counter? A slow ship. What does a Armor thorax counter? A slow ship. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 05:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Olleybear wrote:Commander Ted wrote: Answer this: Slower ships < faster ships Slower ships > ______
Then lets pretend that armor ships are just as fast as shield ships. What would happen? Well, based on your response I figure you can't think of anything.
That isn't the solution, then you would have armor kiting ships. Then all the ships that don't fit nanos would be at a disadvantage and the ships with higher base speeds still win. You would have really tanky macherials with lots of webs, td's, and more dual prop ships. I never ever proposed that armor ships should be just as fast as shield, especially considering their are already kitey armor tankers like the omen and SFI.
Notice I didnt phrase that shield>armor.
Now lets take a moa vs a caracal. Two shield tanks, the caracal has only a fraction the tank of the moa but in a 1v1 the caracal wins. Why? The moa can't reach anywhere close. Speed is to powerful a stat with no counter to it other than other extremely fast ships and rapiers/bhaalgorns/arazu's which are all expensive and not very suitable solo. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 08:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Commander Ted wrote:Answer this: Slower ships < faster ships Slower ships > ______ When it is said that one "uses right tool for right task" in EVE it doesn't mean that you play rock-paper-scissors with ship hulls while roaming low or NPC null. That is just one task that is typically solved by a single kind of tool which is about ability to pick fights, avoid being caught and picking on ships that most probably won't win. Sometimes it is done with slow ships that can cloak, but for most ships mobility is the only viable option. Tbh I don't see this changing until improbable appearance of arena fights in EVE (aside from AT and the like). When you have other tasks at hand (like surviving massive fleet alpha from very long range; killing huge immobile object you'd rather kill and maybe take losses rather than flee and let it live, like capital or hub; controlling a wormhole aperture that isn't moving anywhere), then you have to pick another tool, which most probably will be a brick tank, big gun and wing coherence. Take wormholers for example. When they fight on their (or their temporary neighbour's) turf, they brick tank everything and don't know any logi other than Guardian and Archon, and their composition for attempts on cap kills will be largely the same. However, for lowsec roams they will jump into shield 'canes, Taloses and the like, sometimes new nano'd cruisers like Stabber or Omen (yes). Maybe nano HACs as well, I don't know how good they fare these days. And that is picking right tool for the task. GAME DELETED MY POST I SPENT 30 MINUTES WRITING THE **** CCP. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 08:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:, also who the **** kites in an armour SFI?
You don't but in a solo situation it does give you an edge you can exploit and use to win or run away. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
397
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 09:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Commander Ted wrote:My proposal that I put up in features and ideas is to buff web drones. 5 web drones of any size would equal 60% webs. They can be blown up easily and still be outran but provide a good chance of forcing an opponent into a distance where you have a chance. Yes I can't see any trouble or how it would be OP using 5 light web drones for a total 60% strength +1 web/scram fit on my ship. Armor ships issues to pin faster stuff is not the web or whatever drones, it's the poorly designed badly implemented idea that ships with the shortest range weapon systems should also be the slower ones. For a silly choice it's a very silly one.
Considering that webifier drones are very brittle I do not see what is OP about it. Also considering that your loosing dps and the option for ECM drones makes it even less OP. Plus lots of ships can still outrun the things.
If fast ships used close range weapons... Oh god it would be awful. In order to do damage you would loose all advantages of being fast. Tanky ships are supposed to survive long enough to bring their weapons to bear and to survive being at close ranges. The problem is their sphere of influence is tiny and their is little they can do outside it and little they can do to move it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
398
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 10:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:text.
Their aren't really any droneless speedsters outside frigates (who have small guns). The only one that comes to mind for me is the stabber, which can outrun web drones I believe, or at least long enough to kill them with its guns. The different between drones and a mounted web on a specialized ship is drones can be blown up and take time to catch up. On fast enough ships they may never catch up ever making them perfectly balanced. Then when you loose those drones your advantage is lost. It would be way less effective in practice than a ship mounted web and in a strict 1v1 scenario would provide only a momentary chance to "Reel in" an opponent. Especially on ships with less than 5 drones.
As for large fleets I really think they are irrelevant to the matter.
Hisec wardecs are an area I am well versed in and kiting has an advantage their as well. Ganking someone on an undock with high dps bricks is a good job for tanky ships but it is a tiny and highly situational niche. I mean the vindicator serves that roll well. Yet say for example you undock in something slow and the enemy is in something fast and you engage, what happens? The same thing that would happen if you two met in a safespot or off a gate, he kites you and you die or he runs away. Sure you may be able to tank it long enough to redock but seriously what roll does that accomplish other than official fleet blue balls vessel?
Also Eve not being fair or a arena sandbox is not a argument for why certain ships have to be **** at certain roles. "Games not fair" doesn't mean different flying styles can't be on equal footing in a strict 1v1 scenario which is encountered more often than you think. My web drone idea is far less OP than it sounds when you think about it. The only major problem is that it is dangerous to frigate tacklers, but unless it is a giant swarm of the things being deployed the fragility of them will let frigs make short order of them. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
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